Joseph Nicolosi: Three talks

report by Maggie Heineman

Joseph Nicolosi:  Three talks
[The Causes of Male Homosexuality]
[The Treatment of Male Homosexuality]
[The Prevention of Homosexuality]

Conference bio: A clinical psychologist, Joe is currently the executive director and principle research investigator for the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). For the last 10 years, his professional focus has been the treatment of unwanted homosexuality.  He is a populara speaker on the subject and author of several books including Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality and Healing Homsexuality: Case Stories of Reparative Therapy.  He and his wife have two sons and live in Encino, California.

Selected links:
[NARTH collected papers]
[NARTH survey: findings, strengths, weaknesses]
[Review: Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality
[Key articles and research papers]
[Medical Abuse of GLBT Youth]

Plenary Session: The Causes of Male Homosexuality
 

[note: These are notes from the tape, not a verbatim transcript, which would be about twice this length. A few quotes may not be exact, but they are close to exact, and in context.. Maggie Heineman.]

Lesbianism is more complicated that male homosexuality. 
Not a sexual problem a gender identity problem. The boy’s sense of himself as a male.

4 gay myths: 
10%,  really 1.5 to 2%; 
born gay - not true;  might be pre-disposing, not pre-determining
once gay, always gay 
homosexuality is normal in every way. no sexual preference is the tip of the iceberg of a whole personality and developmental issue

We make a distinction between tolerance and approval.  Gays are entitled to all the civil rights and civil liberties, but it doesn’t mean that I have to approve..  I have the right to say it’s abnormal from my world view, and that doesn’t make me homophobic. 

Definition: Homosexuality is the description of a condition.  Gay means gay-identified. 

There is no such thing as a homosexual.  We are all heterosexuals. Some of us have a homosexual problem. 

Homosexuality as Gender Identity Disorder.    2 ½ to 3 years old.   The boy has a developmental task of identifying with the father. 

So the boy has his natural masculine strivings.  This is biological. This is not cultural. He is born to fulfill his natural masculinity.  He reaches out to the father and wants to connect with the father.    If  he experiences a rejection, he will give up his natural masculine strivings and return to his mother. It’s a safe haven.  Because he was hurt,   he learns the lesson, "I am not good enough as a male."  And to protect himself against future narcissistic hurts, he develops defensive detachment.

Reparative therapy attacks defective detachment.  It teaches them how to make the emotional connection with other men. If he makes that emotional connection, he’s not going to find them sexually attractive. Because the mystique disappears.  Homosexual are always attracted to men who are slightly out of reach. It’s the pursuit of this idealized image.  But the guy who is right there in front of them , whom they see everyday, they lose the sexual attraction for.  This is why gay relationships don’t last. 

Usually the father is weak but good, or strong and malicious…  never seen a good father son relationship in his clients.   If the homosexual has an older brother there is a feared hostile relationship with the older brother and I’ve never seen an exception to that case. 

Latency phase: boy is between five and twelve years old.  He is alienated from boys.  Gets along with girls and his mother, but feels detached from boys. The "kitchen window" boy, fear of becoming involved in the physicality of the male world.  He wants to, but he doesn’t know how.  So the sexual feelings that develop at that age go the mysterious, the boy.  They do not go to the familiar, the girls.   The concept of the "good little boy."   Interested in theater and acting, and it’s all part of this false identity.    Alienation from the body, not owning the body.  He cannot own his own masculine body, an excessive modesty in boyhood goes to the opposite extreme of exhibitionism in adulthood.

Quotes Andrew Sullivan who says that Gay man needs to have two sets of friends: those whom  he has sex with and no relationship, and those that he has  long term friendships and no sex. 

The gay agenda is really about selling the idea that people will be promiscuous, that having sex with strangers is acceptable. That’s the underlying message.

Tells about the McWhirter and Mattison study on gay male couples. [link] We believe that the reason for this is other than society’s homophobia.  We believe it’s because of the search for masculinity.   Short term relationships and promiscuity are characteristic of the gay identity.

Questioner:  Does this search for masculinity explain sado-masochistic behavior? 
Nicolosi:  Sado-masochism is a desire to connect and a hostility towards. There is always an ambivalent attitude.  A gay man is attracted to a person whose qualities he desires for himself.

Questioner: When you have your father’s love, so what else causes male homosexuality?
Nicolosi: Tell me about your relationship with your father.  This man is saying he’s gay but he had a good relationship with his father, so he’s contradicting everything I’m saying.  Tell me about your father.
He was an outgoing man, he worked every day, he was with me at night time, he helped me with my homework,  he showed  me how to play baseball, he showed me how to ride horses, we owned a Tennessee walking horse, he showed me everything.  I mean he e was there from four days old until I was 13. The first time I ever knew  my mother was when I was four years old, then I maybe saw her once a year, maybe twice a year.
Nicolosi: so you didn’t have a mother in your life?
No, the only female leadership I had was a baby sitter and she was like the mother figure in my life. My father raised me for 13 years.  I could go to him with anything I needed to say. He was there He never did anything to me sexually. I never heard him curse. He never drink. He was there at night.
Nicolsi: did you have any brothers and sisters? 
His mother remarred,his younger siblings lived in her home
Nicolosi: Did you have any male friends?  Yes.  Growing up as a boy?  Yes. Was your father affection? Yes.  He was affection to you? Very. Why do you think you are homosexual?  Why do you think you are gay?  That’s what I’m here to find out.  You don’t know?  That’s why I’m here to find out. In your mind you don’t know why you’re homosexual?

Nicolosi (turning to the audience):  Whenever I give a presentation, there’s one man like this who says. "Dr. Nicolosi, I think you’re wrong. I had a great relationship with my father.  Now I’m not going to use you as an example, speaking generally. When I have a man who says I have a great relationships with my father, now again I’m not talking about you,  Now how do I explain that?    I’ll say to him, tell me about the relationship with my father.  He says. well it was great. Well what did you do?  well it was great. There's a shallowness. 

When I ask a heterosexual about his relationship with his father it's "We did this together,  we did that together, my father was this and that, he had sense of humor." There’s a richness when I hear the heterosexual talk about his positive  relationship with his father.  When a gay man who I think, not you now, is trying to shake down the theory, he says he had a great relationship with his father, but when you listen closely it’s a shallow relationship.  It really wasn’t a relationship. There’s no overt hostility but there was no emotional connection.  Now that has always been my findings. Now maybe you and I need to go sit and talk more about it and see what happened. But that’s generally what I have found and that’s why I want to spend a few minutes looking more specifically at this case?

[note: The question was genuine. The questioner was not trying to "shake down the theory." At the end of the conference he was among those who stood to indicate that he had made a decision as a result of the conference.]

Different Questioner:
Would you say that one is more predisposed as a child growing up in a mother/father family say in West LA or in the middle of Kansas on the farm. 
Nicolosi:  Is the Environment a factor?  Yes.  I think there is a difference.  Recent study shows that children raised in NYC, teenagers, are more likely to identify themselves as gay than in othe parts of the country.  So there is an influence in the environment. The primary cause of homosexuality as I understand it is the  relationship  in the family.  But if there are children, a boy is on the edge, then I think the environment makes a difference. And exposure to homosexuality, exposure to pedophile contact, which is sex with an adult, I think can tip for scale for someone who is not sure of their gender identity.  And we know that there are many adolescents who are not sure about their sexual orientation.  The big study, sex in America show that 12 year old are very uncertain about their sexual orientation, but as they are 15 years old they become more certain, and 18 – as they go up they become more clear about their sexual orientation. 

But we don’t have to talk anymore about West LA. Because of Internet--  more danger in his bedroom with the Internet than there is in the streets of San Francisco.  Believe me, the incredible amount of material that ‘s on there, that can really pull a kid away.  If this boy  has doubts about himself, if he has these emotional yearnings for other boys, which can be resolved emotionally, but if he has those feelings and he feels isolated and he goes into his room and closes the door, and the mother and father think he’s doing his algebra, but instead he’s seeing these incredible pictures and the gay chatlines, it’s an incredible variable to the confused adolescent and that’s what I want to talk about later in terms of prevention.

Breakout Session: The Treatment of Male Homosexuality

Nicolosi's views on this are well documented in his books and at the NARTH site.  As Dr. Weinrich's review of Nicolosi's book points out,  while Nicolosi believes  that everyone is really born heterosexual, he openly acknowledges that the underlying homosexual attractions felt by exgays rarely, if ever, disappear.   Exgay sexual feelings are not the same as those of heterosexual men, they don't develop a lust for women in general. Some develop satisfying sexual relationship with a woman that they fall in love with, others continue to have strong homosexual feelings.  

Breakout Session: The Prevention of Homosexuality

[note: these are notes from the tape, not a verbatim transcript, which would be about twice this length. A few quotes may not be exact, but they are close to exact, and in context.. Maggie Heineman.]

He has learned these principles based on the adults he’s worked with. (Nicolosi did not  refer to Reker's work. See thethe online office of George Rekers. ) 

What is necessary for the pre-homosexual boy?    Aka the gender identity disturbed boy.   He is working with 30 little boys who are showing effeminate signs whose parents’ bring them in. 

he has learned that what takes years with adults can be accomplished in months with boys if he has cooperation of both parents.

Tend to be loners, feel that they don’t fit in, have trouble establishing relationships with peers, and have a poor relationship with their father.

Early signs:  explicit message.  "I want to be a girl."  "There is a girl inside of me"    Compulsive characteristic.  Not casual.     3-year old boy went into bathroom and tried to cut off his penis.

Also effeminacy.  Green’s sissy-boy syndrome.  A kind of female impersonation.  Repetitive and compulsive.   Mother says, "tell me about creative use of objects"      "he changes"  his personality changes.  "he’ll do something like that and then look at me to see if he gets a reaction."   Fascination with mother or sister’s clothing.     Boy to mom, "oh mom, you’re so beautiful."  Strong reaction to females on television. Prefer playing with girls, don’t want to get dirty.     One boy said, "why don’t I have a dad?"  -- and he did have a dad – who worked a lot. 

"Is the pre-homosexual boy healthy?"   this is an important question.  strong movement within APA  to make treatment of pre-homosexual boys unethical.     Is there anything wrong with these boys other than their gender identity? 

Mothers  will say to me, "My son is  Mr. Personality, he’s verbal, he’s sensitive to people, he has character, he can walk into a room and charm all the adults."      At the same time these boys tend to be  very manipulative, and quite difficult to live with when they don’t get their way. They have a low frustration tolerance, there’s an immaturity, they’re moody, they’re emotionally volatile, over dramatic "going to kill myself if I don’t get what I want."  They tend to be irritable or dissatisfied and need special attention. Many studies seem to show that these boys tend to have higher anxiety and  higher depression than non-prehomosexual boys.  There’s not just a sense of differentness but a sense of inferiority.  When I look at literature from gay activists, they say "these children feel different."   When you look more closely, they don’t just feel different, they feel inferior.  There’s a feeling of inferiority, they  complain basically don’t feel a part of it. they feel isolated, lonely, like they don’t fit in.   Look at the family, see marital problems, and the siblings often have psychological difficulties,  whole family dynamics.

Boyhood effeminacy is predictive of adult homosexuality. 75% predictor.  These boys, if left alone, will become glb or transgendered.   Sissy-boy syndrome is predictor.  Is he healthy?  Can we have a totally healthy person who is homosexual?

NARTH literature review.  500 studies showing that pathology that exists with the homosexual condition. Self-destructive behavior.  Alcohol, smoking, multiple sexual partners, greater depression, greater anxiety, greater suicide attempts, poor long-term relationships, sado-masochism, group sex, kinds of  sexual behaviors that I’m not even going to talk to you about.

Charles Silverstein, the gay psychologist, who in 1973 convinced the American Psychiatric Association went on to write  "The Joy of Gay Sex"  -- "The New book of the Joy of Gay Sex"   -- if you’re in a bookstore, just look at the pictures.  Once you get a foot in the door you cn just expand.

Question is -- how much of this pathology, the self destructive behavior,  is a result of e condition itself or it to society’s homophobia. – the big argument is that the internalized self hatred because of the society causes these behaviors?   How much is due to homophobia?   Is it 90%? is it 20%?  how much can you attribute? There are no studies on it, it’s just a blanket statement.  Whenever you point out the pathologyk the self destructive behavior, well that’s society’s homophobia. 

Let’s look at interventions. 
Parental Team.  Must have a committed mother and father.  Generally have difficulty with the father.  Richard Green says the same thing.   have to put aside their own personal issues, and be committed to the boy.  Their  own marriage has to be intact.    The mother cannot do it alone.   His experience is the mother’s are great to work with.  She needs a man to tell her how to raise the kid. Incredibly cooperative. 

Maybe the mother’s who bring their son’s in are different from the other mother’s of pre-homosexual boys who don’t seek treatment.  Maybe these mothers are much more controlling and manipulative, but I can tell you that the ones who come to me are very receptive.  Fathers are a little out of it. don’t know how to say it nicer.    I think the mother’s have been getting a bad rap and the fathers need prompting.

First reaction. Freeze and do nothing.  Total denial. It’ll go away.  I suggest they get involved and do something. Be proactive.  Biggest mistake is to do nothing.  Opposite of the opinion we’re hearing in the culture.   -- The basic message is "you are a boy" you are our son we love you as a boy and we don’t want you to act like a girl."       Richard Green said the same thing. The parents did not correct the boy when he acted effeminate. 

The consistent message is we will not tolerate this behavior.  At the same time to be very supportive, very encouraging, very uplifting of his masculinity.

It’s not just correcting the boy, it’s teaching him, trying to get him to talk about it. you’d be surprised, these kids are so incredibly insightful.  "why do you want to do that?"  "what makes you want to do this? make an inquiry. Don’t just correct them. And what you’ll discover is that the boy will do this when he’s under stress.  When he is feeling pressured or anxious, his effeminate behavior increases. And when he is feeling self assured and confident and peaceful and calm, his effeminate behavior decreases. 

And this is exactly what we see with homosexual men. Their homosexual interest *increases* when they are not feeling good about themselves.  So that’s why  we know it is not a biological thing.  It’s more of a defense reaction to other things. 

I always tell the parents to be a little chauvinistic.  Let’s exaggerate the male/female difference. Let’s exaggerate that being male is really special.  Being a guy is great and being a girl is not so great.  I feel sorry for the sister.  She’s going to have her own problems later. But right now we’re working on the boy. We have to sometimes explain to a sibling what’s going on and they usually understand.  But we really enhance that being a boy is special. 

Fathers and sons can do special things.  Mothers and daughters can do specail things.

3 categories of father, we’re exaggerating here. 

inadequate – good guys, hard workers, but cannot express emotions and relate. 
narcissistic - self-absorbed, boy is extension of himself. 
Preoccupied   (with work) doesn’t pay attention to the boy.  this is the guy that when you stop him and wake him up, he will adjust and do a nice adjustment for his son.   These men will say "My son rejected me."    … Fathers need to know that your son will reject you, but keep going after him.  The prehomosexual boy will make his father unimportant.  He experienced a hurt, he makes father and masculinity unimportant.  Father needs to break that defensive detachment and connect with him. 

example: father-son therapy session. 17 year old boy, father is good Christian man.  Nicolosi’s notes on the conversation:  Father said to the boy, "you’ve always been a mystery to me I wasn’t sure if you liked me or not and I would get defensive and ill at ease. I was apprehensive, not wanting to jeopardize.  I thought, "well if he doesn’t like me, I better back away and stay out of the loop that you and your mother were in."  Wrong.  I appreciate his intent.  .. but that’s exactly what not to do.  go after your son.

Catholic  U.S. Bishops: "Always our Children"  -- was really written by a bunch of gay activists, quite frankly.   Best advice is to do nothing.  Wrong again. 

At Columbus  conference a mother said she and her husband suspected that their son was on the internet on the gay chatlines, "but we don’t know if we should say anything."    Before I could answer, someone else on the side,  said, "look, I’ve been in the lifstyle,  if you saw your son drowning, would you throw him a life preserver."

Fathers - connect with your son.   Tell him about your childhood experiences.  Mother has to back off, fathers need to get involved.   Bring in other people.  Talk to the aunt or the grandmother who indulges this boy’s effeminacy. .   get boys into the house,  get the coaches involved, find a male coach, teachers—tell them that your son is dealing with a gender identity problem, we need your cooperation, try to steer him toward the boys, try to let him not do the dressup.  You have to say this, "we’re working with a professional and he suggests we talk to you about it."  and I have gotten great cooperation with the teachers.

Older brother:  often a feared relationship.  Get the older brother involved.  Example. 7 year old boy with 13 year old brother.    He got it.    Robert Bly: women make boys, but men make men.  Importance of male friendship during childhood.   Male peers very important.  Prehomosexual boy is more likely to be verbally and sexually abused. Lot of evidence that there’s a lot of sexual molestation with this. Of my own clients, one third of them men have memories of sexual abuse by an older man.  If sex means love, then that’s what love is.  And link that with the excitement and pleasure of sex.

American Psychological Association in its a review of some literature..  published a report that pedophilia may not be harmful to children.  That is totally nuts.  Interestingly what may be harmful is not the sexual contact with the adult but family environment.  Like the old argument that homosexuality is not the problem, but its the family, it’s Christianity which is the problem, but no the behavior itself.   We sent this out to people in our profession.  Zero response.  No interest.  No outrage.  We sent it to Dr. Laura Schlessinger.  She had a field day.  This propogation, this promotion of a political agenda. So what we said 20 years ago, if we allow homosexuality to be normal, the next step is pedophilia, we’re beginning to see it.  One more aside. The DSM, listing of all pscyhological  disorders.  If you look up pedophilia, pedophilia is not a disorder unless it bothers the pedophile.  Unless it makes him stressed out interferes with.   No reaction from my own profession. 

So we need to get boys into the boy’s life.  they usually don’t like competitive sports. Find something else. Computer games, riding bikes, something that he can get connected with. 

Temperament: tend to be sensitive, introverted, emotionally vulnerable, artistic, imaginative, what I call thin skinned very sensitive, they love music, they love fantasy, they love drawing, that’s fine there’s nothing wrong about that. it’s not about becoming some insensitive brute. Keep your sensitivity. Keep your artistic ability, that’s wonderful.  But learn to feel comfortable with the guys. Feel like one of the boys. 

Single mothers:  particularly difficult for her. She needs to get men into her son’s life.  Don’t rag on the father’s to the kid.  The boy needs to look up to his father.  Tell him the truth when he’s 18, but let him look up to his father now. 

Boy with a connection of Barbie dolls.  Single mother. Teacher says, "you need to devolop his androgynous nature."  Into ballet.  School counselor says, "nothing wrong with it he’s just developing his feminine side.":  it continues.  Psychologist says, "nothing wrong with the boy."   --  then she came to Nicolosi.  Now she’s getting men involved with her son’s life.  The coach, the brother who is married.

7 year old with the 13 year old brother-- we saw a beautiful transformation within a matter of months.  I tell the parents if we all work together we can bring about change in about 4 months.   Parents are being told to do nothing about it..  everything is about tolerance. 

Any parenting book about homosexuality. You will not see one word about cause. It just is. 

4 stages of overcoming childhood GID

1.  resistance
2.  apparent conformity  -- but he’s secretly resisting
3.  working alliance - a beautiful thing to see.  He will verbalize his struggle to not switch over. "my brain switched over. My brain made me do it."  you will actually see the struggle it’s really  a very touching thing to see a 5 year old boy struggling with this stuff. You’re heart wants to go out to him. you want to say, "okay go out and play with the dolls, so what "  but you can’t do that. You’re doing this because you know there are going to be greater problems for him if he doesn’t turn this problem around. 

Mothers says.  "I was watching my son. he was watching this girl character – and he’s fascinated by her, and he had a little toy truck. And he’s trying to not look – to play with the truck.  He was trying to control his behavior. This was when he was 6- 7.  He is now 14, totally accepted by the boys in his class, popular with the boys.   There was a boy in his class, the reputation was that he was gay.  And he said, "I don’t want to be like that."  And the mother was glad to hear that. 

what is accomplished.  Decreased effeminacy.  Increase in self-esteem. more outgoing, more boyish, more reckless, sense of maturity, less moody, less preoccupied with themselves, less anxiety and depression, more popular with boys.  More happy to be a boy. 

A mother: "my son is more authentic, less theatrical, more real with his emotions, more emotionally connected" 

we believe a heterosexual life we believe will happen. There are few long term studies. We’re going to wait and see what happens with these boys.  If they become totally homosexual, we believe they will.

Lesbianism.  3 basic causes
developmentally.  Poor mother-infant relationship.   This woman grew up thinking she was heterosexual, might have even gotten married, one day she meets a female friend they develop an intense emotional attraction.  boing.  She realizes she is lesbian. 
More gender-identity disturbed issue. the tomboy.  Identified with her father.   If the mother is abusive and the mother is  a victim.  If that is what it means to be a female. Then I’m going to be with him.  primitive form of self defense.  Surrenders her feminit, wants to become.  The angry kind of lesbian.
3rd one is the woman who was sexually abused by a man.  Lesbianism is a defense against male sexuality. She’s taking refuge.  Prognosis is better with that because it’s a trust issue.

You can have a little of both. Not of the three, but of two of them.

Adolescence. Focus on the emotional issue.  50% refuse therapy. begin with the boy’s experience. Don’t lecture him or tell him it’s sinful.  Listen closely.  It’s not about sex. It’s about attention, affection. Get to their emotional needs. And it works every time.  Begin to see that their homosexual drive is a need to belong.  So much of the gay motivation is wanting to belong.   Get on the internet or connect with the gays and it’s instant acceptance.  So I connect them with other adolescents who are also dealing with the problem.  So important for them to feel that they are not alone. They are a part of another group of guys. They’re not nerdy. They’re not weirdos, they’re not Christian fanatics. These are just good guys who have the same feelings you do but they don’t want to be gay. And it’s a very powerful connection for them. 

Politics of treatment.  Richard Isay and Nicolosi debate on talk shows.  Isay says, "To treat GID in children  is to label it as a mental illness. We must work for society to accept these boys for who they are."   Parents have the right to do what they want.  Parents need to say, " I can choose to direct my son toward heterosexuality.  I have a right to do that." [NARTH critique of the writings of Richard Isay]